How to Make Learning Stick: Formulas for Effective Training

Introduction

Nolan: Hello everyone and welcome to the Learning and Development podcast sponsored by Infopro Learning.

As always, I’m your host, Nolan Hout. Today, Brian Washburn is joining us to talk about learning engagement. And there’s nobody better to talk about it than Brian. He’s the author of multiple books, including his most recent one titled ‘Instructional Design on a Shoestring.’ Fitting because we will not be avoiding the topic of budget and lack thereof in our podcast today. Speaking of our podcast, let’s get it kicked off.

Hello, Brian. Welcome to the podcast.

Brian: Hi Nolan, it’s great to be here, I’m excited.

Nolan: Thanks. So, Brian, before we get into the topic today, which I know is interesting, we will talk about how to make learning stick. We start every podcast by learning a little bit more about our guests. It’s uncommon, I would say, in learning and development that somebody has spent their whole career, went to college for it, and started with it.

Everybody comes from kind of sometimes untraditional backgrounds that got into it. So, if you were to tell Brian, what is your origin story to where you are today, where you run L&D in a consulting practice?

Brian: Yeah, it’s a fun question. I was talking about this weekend with somebody. But I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Paraguay like 27 years ago. And my best friend and I decided we wanted to return to the Peace Corps office someday. She would be the country director. I would be the number two person in the country office: the program and training officer. And so, I asked her, what do you think would position me for this role?

And she said, Look at instructional design. And so that was where the seed was planted. And then I was buried and had forgotten about it for a while. I came back; I taught GED classes. So, I worked in a classroom for a while. And then I decided, you know, the classroom, I don’t, it’s not where I want to be. And that’s where the idea of instructional design came back.

I was looking at master’s programs, and found some programs on adult learning when I was looking for adult basic education, which was more of a GED focus. And in adult learning, I started going down that rabbit hole, took a job as a training kind of coordinator, worked my way up to a training director for several different nonprofits and NGOS. And all along the way, ATD was a big part of that experience, trying to figure out who the thought leaders were and what books I should be reading.

ATD had great resources about that stuff. Through a confluence of self-study, this dream of being the program and training officer and then falling into these roles and training was the super potion that was my origin story.

Brian Washburn’s Journey in Learning and Development

Nolan: What do you think? Why did you want to pursue that path in the first place? What about learning, training, and instructional design do you think scratches the itch for you?

Brian: My father was a teacher. He was for his entire career, and I tried to avoid it. When I came back from – one of the things I liked about my Peace Corps experience was using a flip chart, going out into the fields, working with farmers, and teaching them what a co-op was and things like that. And then when I came back, I was like, I can’t just set up in a farm with a flip chart and markers, right?

And so, I took what seemed to be the closest thing, teaching GED classes. And I loved it. Working with students and finding that aha moment, and finding creative ways. So, these are students for whom the traditional education system didn’t work. And so, what could capture their attention? What could keep them engaged and wanting to come back each day? Because they didn’t have to be there. And so being able to find creative ways to help people learn was kind of what started to build into this DNA.

The Importance of Creative Learning Methods

Nolan: That’s interesting. And so, you mentioned creative ways, and what we want to talk about today is how we make learning beyond those traditional methods, and something that you write in your book is this: “What’s your formula?” And that’s part of the title. What drew you to that? Because I’m guessing that untraditional means are not always science, but a formula is scientific, how did you choose that metaphor, and how does it relate to creating those experiences?

Brian: I have always been a fan of drawing inspiration from anywhere. And so, it was a random day off from school for my oldest child. I don’t remember why it was between semesters or quarters or something. And so, we went out to lunch at a place called the Lunchbox Laboratory, and we were eating, and I was looking at their placemat, and there was a periodic table of things, and it was like food elements. It was like ketchup and Kobe beef and stuff like that.

And I was like, that’s creative. And then I started wondering what that would look like for learning elements. And so, my mind just started racing, and I took a hike that afternoon and was thinking what would be some elements? And I started texting some colleagues, and I was like a dog with a bone. I just wanted to do something with this. And I think that eventually it turned into this periodic table.

There are 51 different elements across five categories, and it was so fun to put together. I love the idea of a metaphor. When discussing sticky learning, I think a metaphor helps people connect with new concepts. So, we all went through science class with some new concepts to introduce something familiar, the periodic table. Well, these are not the chemical elements; these are the things that make learning go and when we can combine these things, because doing these things in isolation doesn’t work.

When we can bond these different elements together, we can create a formula for amazing learning experiences. It was a fun metaphor to put together, but we didn’t just randomly throw a bunch of elements out there. We started to organize them by function. There are five different categories of elements out there, similar to the periodic table. There are solids, gases, liquids, metals, etc.

Nolan: Yeah, and what I like about that is that you know, it seems like when we’re creating these learning assets, sometimes we almost do get put into this box of like, well, what is it going to be? Instructor-led or asynchronous? Or is it going to have a video? And not only do we put ourselves in the box when we start the program, but I feel like sometimes we get asked to be put into that box from a skill set, from an instructional design standpoint. It kind of gets us into this position where we feel like we don’t have a lot of options, but you’re right.

I mean, I think if you just laid it all out and said, this is everything, this is our toolbox, these are the elements that make up great instructional design, let’s use a little bit of everything here and let’s make sure we’re picking from the right things. Yeah, that’s interesting. And I imagine, especially with some of your Peace Corps work, you’re used to working with what you have. What a great call to action today. I mean, we’ve known in our space, doing more with less, I think we could probably call that the mantra of learning and development. If there were one tagline, we could probably say that’s what it is.

Working Within Budget Constraints

Nolan: And so, I’m assuming you’ve probably been in this either through your GED, education on that end, Peace Corps, or what you’re doing now. So, how does that come into play? Is that like a big element of why you wanted to present these options is to say, listen, if you have a budget, is that another way to do it?

Brian: Yeah, no, it’s a great question because we talked with a potential client a few weeks ago. And as we started to hear some of their thoughts, we asked, OK, so we have some thoughts. We have some ideas. Do you have a budget that you’re thinking about for this project? And they were a little bit coy. They said, well, we have a budget. We’re not Coca-Cola.

And then I had to laugh because the training is the same even for people who work for Coca-Cola, Amazon, Microsoft, Boeing, or whatever large company you can think of. In contrast, those companies may be well-funded and profitable, but their training component never has the resources it wishes it could have.

Nolan: We have one of our largest clients, one of the largest oil organizations in the world, worth trillion, they probably make millions a second. And it was so funny because I remember someone coming to me and saying, Hey, can we discount this program? And I’m like, well, how much does it cost? They’re like, it costs a thousand bucks. And I’m like, they’re asking for a discount on a thousand-dollar program, and this company makes probably a million dollars a second, so you’re right, it’s 100% true.

Brian: Yeah, and that’s so sad, and when it comes to that, so as learning professionals, we have to figure out, how do we work within our means? And the fact of the matter is that there are some creative ways that we can, there are ways to make really expensive learning. I’ve also worked with people in the medical profession who use VR. They use VR to train surgeons on how to perform cataract surgery. So, before they work on a patient, they have the VR goggles on and go through all the motions with their hands to ensure they can do it like pilots.

But very few of us are in that specific field. And so, what can we do that will fit within the budget? My background was teaching GED classes, but I was also the training director for a nonprofit that worked in foster care and an NGO that eliminated corneal blindness. We never had a lot of money. And so, the question is, do we look at our resources and make something effective?

And so, when you look at this periodic table of elements, there are many different ideas. I think a lot of people in their gut know what good training is. However, a really good way to waste money is not to be very strategic or educated about what we want to put together in our program. So, when we can put labels and names on practices, then we can repeat those over and over and over again. And we’re no longer trying to throw things against the wall to see what sticks. We’re able to create something effective. That goes back to this idea of the periodic table metaphor and just creating something sticky within a budget that we have to work with.

High Impact, Low Budget Learning Strategies

Nolan: What are some of those? I’ll share one while I give you time to think of a good example. What is a good example of a great way to have a high impact on a low budget? One of my favorite ones, the lady who leads our commercial practice, our internal sales training practice, we have a whole division that does sales training, she always touts, you know, one of the highest ROI programs I’ve ever run was a series of emails that we sent to sales managers. And the email went to the sales manager, and it simply said, Here is an email I want you to send to your sales team. And that email was very simple. It just said, ask your clients how you like the product you bought last year, and what are your plans for this year?

And so, the sales manager dutifully opens it up, okay, sends it along. Out of that, a client calls and says, Hey, thank you, we’ve loved it, we’re actually, we want to buy two more, and these are million-dollar machines, and so that one email generated two million dollars of business. So, it’s not like, so that’s one of my favorite examples because how much does it cost to make an email? Nobody can do that. So, what’s maybe one of your halls of fame, low-budget, high-impact examples?

Brian: Yeah, well, I love that example because one of the biggest things that companies make a mistake on when it comes to thinking about learning is thinking that it has to be, whether it’s instructor-led, asynchronous, eLearning, or formal. It has to be formal. And so, the other mistake they make is that we’re developing our people. Our people are smart. So, we’re sending them to training and will depend on them to implement things.

And the research shows that it’s the manager. That manager is the cornerstone, the linchpin to figuring out how something will be applied on the job. And so that particular example you shared goes with everything we know about how learning actually works, right? So, it’s a series of emails. It’s a low lift for the manager. We’re not burdening the manager to say, come up with some questions. We’re giving them the questions to ask. And we didn’t even have to pull people offline to go through a training.

So, one of the things I have as an example that I would like to share is that we had one client call us up and say it was at the start of the pandemic. Can you work with our staff and put together a training program, or how much would a training program cost to facilitate virtually with our staff? And I said that we could. Let me ask you a few more questions.

And when I started asking questions, it turned out that their biggest need wasn’t to get people trained on delivering something virtually. It was figuring out what people need to learn because everyone across the organization had a different role and needed to learn something different. And so, if you’re going to pull everyone together for a virtual session that only one person will benefit from, that’s not a good investment. So, what we ended up doing was we flipped it and said, before we do any virtual training presentations or education on how to deliver virtually, maybe what we need to do is just invest a little bit of money in creating a competency model or a success profile to figure out what do people need? When we started to talk to people there, there were a bunch of different answers. Everybody needed something different.

It was clear to us that there was no one training that was going to be their magic bullet. But also, people didn’t know what they needed to do to get ahead. So, when we could lay out a roadmap of what we needed to do to get ahead, they could start to work with people. Instead of creating a training program on virtual delivery, we trained managers to mentor some of their people, some of the more junior staff, to improve their skills. So, it wasn’t a training program at all. It was more of a mentorship type of thing.

Balancing Formal and Informal Learning

Nolan: Yeah, so how do you strike that balance between formal and informal, especially nowadays, with so much focus on skill development versus job development? When it’s job development they’ll learn it on the job, or they’ll pick it up, but now there’s a much that shift to, you know, they need to be a better communicator, and maybe you pick up some of that on the job, you need some – when you think about it is you kind of need a mentor there.

Unfortunately, when you tell them that I’m going to train you on this skill, many people don’t want to learn it. They’re like, well, I already know this, I know how to communicate versus if you tell me how to make a widget and I don’t know how to make a widget, I will listen. How are we able to make an impact on these skills when using informal means is the question.

Brian: When you think of an organization, and I think that informal learning is one of the great untapped powers or potentials that organizations have. They don’t often release that potential because they don’t think about it. Different organizations are at different levels of maturity regarding their learning programs. So, in an ideal world there is the Center for Creative Leadership kind of 70-20-10 model where there is a kind of the thought process, there is about 10% of our new learning comes through formal means, about 20% comes through supportive relationships, and 70% is kind of that, those stretch assignments or that on the job kind of learning or things like that.

An ideal organization that is mature in its learning programs will combine all of that stuff. They’ll have a mentor program where people are trained in what it means to be a mentor, work with people, and develop people. That way, they’ll have formal learning programs, whether instructor-led or an LMS, with clear learning paths for people to take. And then there’s the on-the-job growth type of thing, too.

But to your question about how to maximize the potential for informal learning, the first thing I think is to make sure that we remove the stigma from it, right? So, organizations can and should have some intranet, whether a Slack or Teams channel, or use some of the bigger intranet services out there. But that is perfect. A lot of organizations have them, and people just kind of stuff things there. And how do we use this? It’s bloated and overwhelming.

But can we clean things up so that people know how to access on-demand, just-in-time videos? So, for example, if I need to fix the garbage disposal because it is not working in my house, I don’t go to Home Depot and take an all-day training session on general home maintenance. I will pull up a two-minute YouTube video and determine if this kind of thing will solve my problem. And usually it does. Why can’t we do that at work as well? Why don’t we have resources, whether they’re just general resources that we can go to on YouTube or things that are on the internet, to help us do our job better when we need to know that information?

Nolan: Yeah, and I think there will be a shift there. One of my favorite questions when I’m speaking and engaging with chief learning officers and CHROS is, when you analyze your training budget, I mostly start with, would you subscribe to roughly 70-20-10, is roughly how people learn? And most people say, yeah, yeah, it’s roughly that. And I say, how much do you spend on the 10% versus the 70% versus the 20%? And it’s usually the exact opposite, right? I’ve spent 70% on formal. I don’t spend any money on making my managers better. I don’t see that L&D does not see that hitting them.

Leveraging AI in Learning and Development

Nolan: I wonder, one of the things you touched on, and it’s something that we at Infopro Learning are, I’m working with our head of leadership on, we just launched a product called ‘Guru’ Leadership. It is an AI agent that essentially becomes your coach. We’re testing it with some clients right now because we’re trying to identify that during COVID, everybody went out and bought these large LinkedIn learning, whatever it is. And, as you would expect, nobody took any of that training because I don’t want to bat an eye at anything, but they didn’t take it.

Brian: Yep, people get busy. There are other things, and unless we’re directed to take that, I know people who are like, I love LinkedIn learning, and they are self-directed, and that’s not the majority of us.

Nolan: Exactly, and the majority of the – and I fit into that majority. And I said what I would like is if I have to give a tough conversation, I want to be able to ask, like I would ask YouTube how to fix a disposal, how to fix my team, how to fix the communication issues on my team. I don’t think I’ll do that yet. The generation below me probably would be more than – you have the whole zeitgeist shifting. You have all those, it’s probably a dollar industry with online therapy, BetterHelp and all these companies doing online therapy.

So, we’re starting to get used to the acceptability of this answer, and I need it now. But I think the issue has always been content. YouTube is pulling from seven billion people worldwide who have all had the same disposal issues. Somebody was smart enough to make a video on how to solve it. But how do we do that internally?

And what we’re finding is that AI is unlocking that and democratizing the subject matter expertise that used to live within an organization. How are you seeing organizations leverage AI or other tools, whatever it should be, to deliver more of that real-time, on-the-job, kind of YouTube-type, I ask a question, I get an answer type training.

Brian: Things like ChatGPT and Gemini are tools we’re seeing people use a lot. Now, there are a few exceptions to that. We’ve been working with several organizations in the financial industry, and financial services are like, we can’t use AI, we’re not allowed to. And so, they continue to work through a bit more traditional means, but they’ll bring in somebody like us to do a train-the-trainer program.

As opposed to being able to, which I think there’s lots of value in having, it is still important to bring in the experts to talk about different things and train people on different things. AI has tons of advantages in terms of saving time. There are also some things that you need to be careful about regarding the veracity of the information. Is it going to be accurate? Is it the right stuff that’s there? And also, what is the tool we’re using, and where does the information we’re putting in there go? So, we want to kind of. There are many questions around proprietary information, so don’t put that stuff into AI.

That said, a lot of the organizations, even the nonprofit organizations that we’re working with that don’t have a ton of funding have embraced things like ChatGPT or Gemini to help just as a starting point, whether it is to create case studies, whether that is to help with slide design. I’ve even seen people use it to improve their resume and get questions for, not just questions that could be asked based on a job description, but what are the answers to the questions, right?

So, there are so many things that it can, and I love how you’re talking about a specific tool with a specific coaching focus. And we’re talking with other business owners who are dabbling in AI for this reason. Because the idea is that we don’t always have a mentor. We don’t always have somebody who can, who will have the answers or has the experience. So being able to rely on or leverage technology and the technology available to us today to ask questions, get some answers, and get some guidance are all things that we’re seeing people using out there.

Nolan: Yeah, and I think we’re probably, I think we’re not, I don’t know if we’re quite there. It’s interesting because so much of it is also a cultural standpoint. As you mentioned, it is about how people view technology and their answers. If I’m asking a sensitive coaching question, who gets that, and what happens? I’m sure there’ll be lots and lots of unpacking that we have to do when it comes to that.

We’ve covered AI, now that we’ve covered AI, I feel like we’ve officially checked every box that you have to in a podcast. I don’t think you’re allowed to finish a podcast, right, without, you know, mentioning AI.

Brian: Of course.

Nolan: But we’ve talked about AI and some low-budget things for those who need it. What are, you know, a couple of takeaways that you could give to some people who are in this transition right now? Because I feel that we’re in this transition, we were not digital, and then we were forced to go digital, but it was a square peg in a round hole. You just had to go, even if digital wasn’t the best fit, that’s what you did.

Now, I think we’re a little bit more intentional. So, what are some things that you can maybe, you know, use as tools to say, okay, we’re all in this together? What are those big commonalities that you’re seeing across the board that are making the biggest impact for learners?

Social Media and Learning Trends

Brian: One of the areas where I’ve seen the biggest impact is through conversations on social media, especially LinkedIn. There are phenomenal voices to follow who are consistently sharing valuable insights. These conversations have shaped how I approach my work and continue to influence how I think.

For instance, Will Thalheimer regularly shares research-based best practices, challenging outdated methods that may not be instructionally sound. Melissa Milloway, on the other hand, is building courses and products using AI tools. If you’re following the right people, LinkedIn becomes a fascinating space for social learning—watching people “work out loud” and share their experiments and successes is incredibly insightful. This kind of informal learning is a powerful resource for anyone looking to up their game in L&D.

Beyond AI and social media, revisiting traditional tools, like PowerPoint, is also valuable. Despite being decades old, it remains a staple in training. Most sessions are expected to include slides, but we’ve been encouraging people to reflect: Is your slide deck synonymous with your presentation? The answer is no.

I co-authored a booklet with ATD titled PowerPoint: Your Co-Facilitator, which reframes how we think about presentation tools. In any training session, the facilitator is the main actor—PowerPoint and similar tools are like backup singers. They enhance the performance, but shouldn’t steal the spotlight. So, whether it’s cutting-edge AI, evolving social platforms, or foundational tech like PowerPoint, all these tools play a role. Together, they form three key focus areas for delivering effective learning experiences.

Nolan: Absolutely. The human element is critical—like you mentioned, it’s all about conversations. Engagement has always been a challenge in learning, and as a marketer, I understand that struggle. It’s one of the hardest things to achieve.

If you’re a marketer selling Coca-Cola, that’s easy—it’s the number one brand in the world. But try marketing a learning program to a 60-year-old executive, an 18-year-old intern from Alabama, someone who speaks English as a fifth language, a retiree, a 16-year-old, a 30-year-old, a salesperson, a CFO, or an operations manager who only uses their laptop for training. There’s no immediate reward for them—it’s the ultimate challenge.

I tell people this: sometimes it’s about returning to guerrilla marketing basics. If you struggle to fill a classroom, send a personal message on Teams or Slack. Say something like, “Hey, I spoke with your manager, John, and he mentioned you might be interested in this training. Just wanted to make sure it’s on your radar.”

Everyone’s overwhelmed with emails and notifications. Sometimes, all it takes is a simple, personal touch. Not everything has to be built for scale. Sometimes, you have to pick up the phone.

Brian: Absolutely—and relationships are key. One thing often overlooked in any industry, especially in learning and development, is how much relationships matter. Those connections are critical, whether with supervisors, potential learners, department heads, or stakeholders who control the budget.

In a previous role, I worked at an eye bank that specialised in corneal transplants. Some of the smartest people in the world were doing incredibly technical work there, and I was one of the few who didn’t come from a technical background. At first, people were a bit amused—this guy doing training? That’s nice, but we know our stuff.

I didn’t get much traction when I tried to introduce more instructionally sound learning practices until I connected with someone from the operations team. She became an advocate once she saw the value in what I was offering. She told others, “You should check out Brian’s session on instructional design—it helps, whether you’re presenting at a conference or in a team meeting.”

It wasn’t me pushing the learning agenda. It was someone internal, respected, and without a formal training title, who became a champion. That’s the power of relationships—of grassroots advocacy. As you mentioned, it’s guerrilla marketing 101: finding allies who can amplify your impact from the inside.

Nolan: Absolutely. As we wrap up, Brian, one last question for you. You’ve built a successful career and now advise organizations on effective learning strategies. For those just entering the field or facing a roadblock, what’s one piece of advice—the low-hanging fruit—they can work on today to see results tomorrow?

Brian: It’s a low-hanging fruit that often goes unnoticed and comes down to three key elements. First, we need to consider the organization itself. I was drawn to creativity when I started learning—I loved finding ways to engage people. I was even the mascot for my university, so creative expression was natural for me. Early in my career, people would say, “That session was amazing!” A year later, they’d still remember it—but when I asked what they’d done with it, the answer was usually “nothing.”

To grow as learning professionals, we must go beyond engagement and focus on effectiveness. Three factors make training truly effective—and if we focus on them, even the training we’re designing right now can be better by tomorrow.

1. The organization’s need: What problem are we solving? Training should align with the organization’s goals.

2. The manager’s role: We’ve talked about how a manager’s involvement makes a difference. They determine accountability and whether new skills are actually applied. But instead of just telling managers to support training, we need to equip them with tools that make it easy, without adding to their workload.

3. The trainer or facilitator: Whether we deliver the training ourselves or create it for someone else, the session must match the facilitator’s voice and style. We can’t design it for us—we have to design it for them.

If we consistently consider these three things—the organization, the manager, and the trainer—we’ll create learning experiences that truly stick and make an immediate impact.

Conclusion

Nolan: Yeah, I love that. I’m a big believer in the, you don’t – if you can’t answer the question, what’s in it for the learner, and you don’t look at every problem through the eyes. I always look at the company’s standpoint first. What does this company care about? What does the learner care about? I rarely include the manager, but that, you’re right, they are the person driving that forward. What a great – well, Brian, thank you so much for the time today. Thanks for spending some time and sharing your knowledge with us. This has been great.

Brian: I love this opportunity. Thank you so much, Nolan. I’ll come back anytime. I love this conversation. All right, take care.

Nolan: Great, thank you.