The Caring Dividend: From Platitudes to Performance

Introduction

Nolan: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Talent Equation podcast, formerly known as the Learning and Development podcast. This episode, as always, is sponsored by the folks at Infopro Learning and hosted by me, Nolan Hout. Today I’m sitting down with two people — two for the price of one — who’ve built their careers on one of the most underrated levers in an organization. We’re starting to see that now, which is the relationships between the people inside of it and how those get developed.

Our first guest is Dr. Brooklyn Rainey. She’s a researcher and author whose doctoral work on trust and human connection has taken her from schools into the executive boardroom. Joining her is Dr. Stephanie Fitzpatrick, who spent years learning at some of the world’s largest companies — United Health Group, and then Apple. She knows firsthand what it takes to move people’s strategy at such an enormous scale.

Today we’re going to zero in on one specific idea from the work that these two are doing together, which is the Caring Dividend. We’re going to talk about the science behind it, but also the real-world implementation. Brooklyn and Stephanie, welcome to the podcast.

Stephanie: Thanks, Nolan. Great to be here.

Brooklyn: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Origin Stories — How They Got Here

Nolan: Before we get into the meat of the subject, let’s start with a quick intro. We’ll start with you, Stephanie. You have years of success leading large organizations, but that’s probably not where you started. Where did it all begin for you?

Stephanie: It all began for me with a call to look at work as an opportunity for people to bring their dreams to life. While I was fortunate enough to spend much of my time in L&D, I really look at the fact that we spend more time in our lives at work than anywhere else. How do we not only tap into the full potential of every human being inside organizations, but also allow them to explore what they want the outcome of that work to create for themselves, for their family, for those they love? There’s always a bit of altruism in terms of why I show up to work, which directly ties to why I’m so excited about the work that Brooklyn and I are doing together.

Nolan: That’s lovely and I’m glad that you have that passion. I don’t think I’ve heard it put so beautifully before. Brooklyn, the bar is high.

Brooklyn: I was a hockey player, an accidental theater major. I ended up working in schools as a teacher and as a coach. My whole life I’ve been surrounded by the most incredible mentors you could ever imagine. I say I had the greatest bench in the world of supporters — people invested in my success. She mentioned altruism — it really truly is about that for me as well. I felt so invested in by those around me, bosses, leaders, managers who saw potential in me and wanted to give me the tools and the environment to thrive. I’m so grateful for that and have spent my career turning around and trying to create the right environments for people to thrive, chase their dreams, and advance their situation. My work has been about figuring out how we can build environments and train the managers and leaders in positions of authority to best support everyone around them.

Nolan: The classic career arc of the ice hockey theater teacher. So, what led you both to pursue your doctorate?

The Path to Their Doctorates

Stephanie: That gets to the point of how Brooklyn and I came to work together. We had the wonderful opportunity to meet at the University of Pennsylvania, where we had robust dialogue and a shared passion for answering these questions, and we’re so fortunate that it’s now turning into us having a business together. Why pursuing a doctorate? For me, one was that I love structured learning. I’m an active reader and listener, but that can feel a little disorganized. Having a structured curricula worked really well for my style. And then just truly being a lifelong learner and having the opportunity to engage in what at moments was one of the loneliest journeys of my life. But at the core of that loneliness was an incredible group of like-minded people who understood rigor and debate and dialogue. When I say like-minded, it doesn’t mean we all saw things the same way, but we had a real commonality in looking at curiosity as a great lever for moving the world forward.

My story is similar but different. I saw a problem in my career and in education and I wanted to solve it. At the heart of it was ensuring young people get what they need from adults at school without burning out the adults. I stepped away from working in schools to explore this and ended up in a doctoral program with K-12 educators. I spent a year there in a different program and realized these were all people I had spent my career talking to and examining this issue with. We didn’t have anything more to offer one another because we all had the same idea about the problem. It was in reading a book by one of the professors in the CLO program at Penn where I thought, what else is out there? Who else can look at this problem with me? I sat in on a couple of classes. One of the professors really helped me see I wasn’t looking to solve one school’s problem — I was looking to upskill a workforce and better articulate expectations around teachers and school leaders in a way that had never been done before in K-12. When I entered the room with these learning professionals, I was blown away by their insights and the ways they were looking at problems.

Why “Caring”? — The Origin of the Caring Dividend

Nolan: Out of all the things in the world you could hone in on, why caring? Today we’re going to talk about something called the Caring Dividend. What made you latch on and say, that’s it?

Stephanie: If we look at what’s happening in the external world right now — the fear and uncertainty created by AI, high levels of isolation and burnout, multiple generations in the workplace all wanting different things, and this call to create environments of greater psychological safety and belonging — all of those things are happening, yet no one is getting real clarity on how to change that equation. And even if I go back to the idea of the coach: I bet if I asked you to describe the behavioral attributes of a bad coach, you could do it just like that. But when we flip the equation and say, define what good looks like, everything becomes a little murkier. Care is the same. Many people say that care sits at the center of fostering connectedness and trust in the workplace. Companies have it as part of their employee value proposition, listed in their values. Yet no one is defining what it is or the behavioral attributes of how to do it. When Brooklyn and I started talking, I said if we can define this in a way that’s simple and practical and repeatable, we can make a real difference.

Brooklyn: Our research indicates that when people feel cared for in the workplace, we see increases in engagement, productivity, and retention — all the things we want to see more of. What’s been really fascinating is that over 90% of the leaders, managers, and supervisors we’ve interviewed or surveyed say they care about their team. But when you interview the same team under that leader and ask if their manager cares about them, we’re seeing only 40 to 50% of those people stating they feel cared for. Is this an issue of the leader expressing their care? Is it a marketing issue in how they’re doing it? Do they not care? If they do care, are they expressing it in a way that can be received? We also look at it from the expectation side of employees — are they expecting the right kind of relationship and care from that leader? Are they looking to them as a therapist, a friend, a parent, a work spouse? So, we’re working on a specific definition and toolset to close that gap, because it’s all about business performance and productivity. Care is an investment in the wellbeing and success of another.

Stephanie: The data tells us that in environments where care is demonstrated, we see one and a half times more productive results from employees, 1.3 times higher loyalty, and in most instances, 76% higher engagement in the workforce. Through something expressed quite simply, we’re getting a multitude of dividends and results.

Defining Care — The Four Domains

Nolan: What does caring actually mean? I’m thinking about whether I’m the guy who says I care about my team, but they say I don’t care about them. What does it mean?

Brooklyn: We’ve fallen into a trap in this country of presence and platitudes being the go-to expression of care — that we’ve been trained to do it a certain way. But when we break it down and look at the ethics of care, culturally responsive care, different theories, and our own research, what we found is that there are four domains for expressing care. Cheerleading, challenging, comforting, and coaching.

We look at these dimensions as a nutritional plate. Just like you need a healthy balance of proteins, produce, greens, and grains, we need a healthy balance from those in a position of authority who are overseeing our progress and productivity. The human need is for cheerleading, challenging, comforting, and coaching.

The issue is that people often swing to one default mode. There are environments that get disrupted by leaders who go too far in any one direction — whether that’s challenger, comforter, or cheerleader. When they dip to that shadow side, we actually see the reverse outcomes — the opposite of what we’re aiming for.

Stephanie: Care is expressed through a variety of communication challenges. The four domains help us understand how care is communicated. As a leader, am I being responsive in my language of care? When I recognize that I’m bringing challengers all the time and I want to make sure I’m not degrading those relationships, what other communication approaches can I use to be responsive and deliver care in a way that feels good for all different types of people receiving it?

Nolan: How do you know how much of each to give?

Brooklyn: I’d call it more of a dial than a nutritional plate, because it’s responsive. We’re looking for indicators from our team on what they might need more of. Have I drifted too far to comforting, and people are coming in late and not hitting deadlines? I’ve got to turn that dial toward a little more challenge and then coach them on the way. When we each have a leaning or a default way that we prefer to care, it doesn’t always lead well. If I meet with my team, I’m going to say: here’s what you can expect from me. You’re going to get some cheerleading, some challenging, some comforting, and coaching. If you ever feel you’re getting too much of something or not enough of something, I want you to share that with me. You’re going to feel a sense of care from me because I’m invested in your wellbeing and success in this work and in the advancement of your career.

Shared Language and Two-Way Expectations

Nolan: I don’t see it talked about much — the team’s responsibility to understand what they should expect from their leaders. Leaders are being expected to be a parent, a counselor, a friend, a colleague. Can you talk about how this model also sets clear expectations for the person receiving it?

Stephanie: The four domains create a shared language. Immediately when we talk about cheerleading, challenging, comforting, and coaching, you have an idea of what that looks like. What we’ve built is an assessment that allows you to look more deeply. Instead of just saying “I think I’m this,” you can take the assessment and have actually measured data on how you’re showing up for others, then go deeper into the behavioral attributes. That shared language is important to understand before we jump to expectations, because what that shared language allows for is clarity.

Brooklyn: What you described, Nolan, is what we talk about with authentic connection — actual leadership focuses on what is the need and how can I support this person with their career, versus prioritizing likeability and wanting to be loved. The cheerleading that says you’re great no matter what actually undermines trust because they will eventually not trust your word — those words become platitudes and are meaningless. We talk about two-way expectations and one-way care. When we share with a team what we expect of them, we also turn around and say, and here’s what you can expect from me. That conversation, with this language, has been company-altering and life-altering.

The assessment is also the tool. You can find out which way you lean or how people receive you, but all that means is: I often go toward challenging or coaching — I’ve got to be aware I have other options. If you’re only a challenger, it’s like having four drivers in your golf bag and no other club. We’re going to drive the ball, use a hybrid, wedge, and putt. That’s the same as cheerleading, challenging, comforting, and coaching — using a different tool at a different moment for a different purpose.

One-Way Care — The Debate

Nolan: One-way care sounds so utilitarian. Care only goes one way — that makes no sense to me.

Brooklyn: Here’s what I mean by that. When there is a hierarchical relationship, when there is a person in power — a boss, a leader who has authority over the team — the care must be one way. I care for the team. I am not looking for a team to care for me. If I’m looking to be affirmed by my team, I’m actually disrupting boundaries and a sense of safety that needs to exist. So, there’s no competition amongst the team on who gives the best compliments. My care for me needs to come from those above me and those beside me, but not those under me. In your marriage it’s reciprocal. In your friendship it’s reciprocal. But when you are in a position of authority, it is one way towards your team. As soon as we look for it back to fill our own cup, to affirm our self-worth, we’re disrupting boundaries that need to exist in the workplace.

Nolan: I had a rude awakening during the Me-Too moment — not because I did something, but because I truly did not understand the power that I had over other people. Being the boss comes with a certain level of power, and it doesn’t matter whether or not you wield it with intention. It matters that it was experienced that way. I also had to lay somebody off and really had to think about preparation. You see all these LinkedIn posts right now of bosses who are weepy and teary-eyed. Is that showing up for them or is it wrong? Yes, it is hard for me, of course. But it’s a million times harder for the person to let go. If I cry because I genuinely am sad, am I taking it away from them?

Stephanie: That’s a classic challenge of which care expression would have been most beneficial in that situation. Maybe showing up crying is an over-expression of comforting, and what that person needs is challenging in that moment — like, you’re going to pick yourself up and get out there. What I love about what you’re saying is how often, maybe mistakenly, we make it about us. This notion of one-way care really defines when it needs to be about me, I need to find that from somewhere else — outside of work, my supervisor, those around me. When it comes to this power dynamic of someone reporting to me, my expectation shouldn’t be that they’re caring back.

I was beloved by my team. They all the time told me how great I was and how much they loved working for me. I really thought I was nailing it. Then I got my employee engagement results, and they were abysmal. I was gutted — because my day-to-day experience was not at all represented in what people shared under the cloak of confidentiality. What I came to realize, looking at it through our model, was I wasn’t creating an environment where they could come to me with what they needed differently.

Brooklyn: Of course, gratitude is fine. But if your culture looks like one where they can’t offer an idea or contribute to a meeting without a compliment, and it’s clearly become an expectation of the leader — and there was a meeting after the meeting to talk about how much everybody loved the meeting — then if your feelings of contribution are tied to the number of compliments you receive in a day, you need a coach, a therapist, somewhere outside the company to fill your cup so you can show up and pour out. When compliments happen, are they wonderful? Yes. But when they’re expected, they’re not authentic. We’re prioritizing likeability over authentic connection with the purpose of productivity and business outcomes.

Scaling Care in Large Organizations

Nolan: You wouldn’t create a model like this unless you felt you could apply it at large organizations. How do you scale this in an organization so vast and wide with so many moving parts?

Stephanie: Scale is unique to the organization. I learned very early in my career that if you have to do something once, you should build it in a way where you can do it a thousand times or 50,000 times. How do you think about long-term impact versus execution? That’s the root of scale. What does this look like on the other side — not just did I execute it and get it done? Where do you start? Start with the vision. Do you have a compelling vision, your why, your burning platform? Next, who are your advocates and key stakeholders? Then I believe in islands of success. If you think scale means starting with 700,000 people, you’re going to run into obstacles. The core is a shared language. People start using that shared language and then all of a sudden there’s a little FOMO — wait, they just talked about something I didn’t understand. I want to know more. That’s where you get the viral component — through shared language and islands of success. You build on that by embedding the language into your core processes, then looking at sustainment and check-ins.

Saving Time Through Clarity and Expectations

Nolan: One of the biggest challenges right now is just this element of time. Managers want to be better — they literally cannot. They don’t have time. Have you found that this model is actually giving managers more time in their day?

Brooklyn: Clarity and expectations are going to save us time. Being better about what you can expect from me in terms of my approachability, accessibility, when you can find me, what you can expect to receive — when we’re upfront about all of that, we’re going to save time. I observed one leader in a meeting at a large corporation where every single time before someone spoke, they complimented the leader. I couldn’t believe the time wasted. I spoke with one person afterwards and she said she’d only been at the company for a year. She didn’t really know this boss that well, but it was definitely part of the culture — and this was how every weekly meeting went. I see a huge opportunity to save time if we can get this right. It’s on both sides — training that leader to be clear about their expressions of care and responsive to their team’s needs but also sharing with the team what they can expect.

Performance as the Foundation

Nolan: So much of this communication is grounded in performance. That is what you expect when you do this one-way street journey. Your only expectation is that they perform for you.

Stephanie: Exactly. And if we go back to where we started with why care, if we look at the environments people are operating inside — where there’s tons of fear, so much uncertainty, isolation, burnout — if I can offer a shared language that allows you to better understand how your performance will be guided, measured, and celebrated, then we’re eliminating a lot of that fear and ambiguity.

Brooklyn: Coaching, coaching — almost nailed it.

Nolan: And simplifying it for the manager — listen, everything is about performance, but in that, I’m going to show up for you in four ways: cheerleading, challenging, comforting, and coaching. This is about performance, and I want to make sure you’re performing because that’s the most important thing.

Stephanie: And the root of it is, I’m going to do that because I care about you. When you perform well at your job, you create the safety and security that most of us look for as the byproduct of performance.

Practical Takeaways

Nolan: A lot of this is just practical and exists outside of just these four walls. Let’s end with one practical thing — is there one activity or frame of reference that leaders, or even people in their personal lives, can apply from what they’ve learned today?

Stephanie: I would challenge you to think about the four domains of care — cheerleading, comforting, challenging, coaching — and without any of our tools and resources, just do a personal self-assessment. How am I showing up in each of those? Are there some places where I’m gravitating a little too much toward one or the other? That’s where I’d leave you: putting the practicality into play, independent of any of our tools and resources.

Brooklyn: I’d build on that and say look across your entire life, because this applies everywhere. Whether you’re a parent, an auntie, a t-ball coach — outside of the workplace, we have to be practicing these skills as well if we’re going to show up in the workplace and do them well. It’s about slowing down and being really intentional and curious: what are my words? What are the impacts of my words? What am I seeing? How can I turn that dial if what I’m saying is not getting the outcome we’re looking for? And I invite you, if you’re a leader, to talk to your teams about these four domains in this regard, that is what they can and should be expecting from you, and they can ask for something different if they need it.

Stephanie: Also, please visit our website at brsfgroup.com. If this has piqued your interest, book a session with us. We also have a stakeholder survey on our website where we’re constantly gathering more information about other people’s experiences, and that helps us formulate our work. We’d love more insights from you.

Nolan: And if you are a leader, you have to recognize that it is a one-way street. You can say, well, that’s just some new age make-people-feel-good thing. It’s really not. The intentionality of what you do — you need to take a hard look at that. So, I’ll leave it at that. Thank you, ladies. This has been a phenomenal podcast. I really appreciate you joining me.

Brooklyn: Thanks, Nolan.

Stephanie: Thanks, everyone.